Chaz Bono in final stages of sex change

I am saddened by the way this article has represented Chaz. I understand the difficulty in describing a famous figure in gender terms not commonly historically given to them. However should this person express intent, desire, and is in process to change their gender, it is EXTREMELY RUDE to return to using the gendered pronouns that have historically been assigned rather than the stated desired pronouns.
Chaz has expressed being male, he has stated very publicly of his intent to completely transition. Yet the headline of this article reads “Cher's Daughter…” To be fair to Chaz, this headline should read “Cher's Son…” Furthermore ending the article with the sentence “Chastity Bono came out as a lesbian when SHE was aged 18.” Again is rude and inaccurate. Gender is something that even this article affirms is between your ears not your legs, and Chaz was quoted as saying he has been male as long as he can remember. To conclude this article with that sentence belittles Chaz's, as well as any other trans-person's, struggle they have gone through to come out publicly as a trans-person.

And i want to be a complete woman.

I am saddened by the way this article has represented Chaz. I understand the difficulty in describing a famous figure in gender terms not commonly historically given to them. However should this person express intent, desire, and is in process to change their gender, it is EXTREMELY RUDE to return to using the gendered pronouns that have historically been assigned rather than the stated desired pronouns. nChaz has expressed being male, he has stated very publicly of his intent to completely transition. Yet the headline of this article reads “Cher’s Daughter…” To be fair to Chaz, this headline should read “Cher’s Son…” Furthermore ending the article with the sentence “Chastity Bono came out as a lesbian when SHE was aged 18.” Again is rude and inaccurate. Gender is something that even this article affirms is between your ears not your legs, and Chaz was quoted as saying he has been male as long as he can remember. To conclude this article with that sentence belittles Chaz’s, as well as any other trans-person’s, struggle they have gone through to come out publicly as a trans-person.

And i want to be a complete woman.

Hey Jena!

You bring up a very good point, and I must apologize. I'm afraid the failure to proofread for the fine details falls on me. I was happy to edit the article to be more sensitive to your suggestions and perspective. In addition, I double-checked the source article and attempted to post your comment for their review (especially seeing as how they are an international news source and will undoubtedly give this article more traction than we will), however the Times UK site does not allow comments.

One thing I must say, is that although I deleted the last line regarding Chastity (now Chaz) Bono's decision to come out as a lesbian at age 18, I think the original article was merely attempting to cite an action that occurred while Chaz was still Chastity.

Wouldn't it be sort of grammatically incorrect, inaccurate, and confusing to refer to a male as “coming out” as a lesbian?

For example, if someone had known you before your transition and were referring to something you'd done in the past before your transition, they may (and not in an attempt to be rude) describe that action using your previous gender pronoun. Would that be entirely incorrect? Especially if the action was something you did that was an express result of your previous gender, such as marriage and/or a sport you played?

Coming from a personal perspective, if I were to change genders, I would not want people referring to certain past actions using my current gender pronouns (i.e. “Remember “dante's” prom dress?” or “Remember “dante's” first boyfriend?” or “Remember “dante's” first trip to the Clinique booth for a make-up makeover?”)

Curious, I am.

B.

B, I do understand what your trying to imply here. I agree, when referring to a trans -individual(s) “past” life, it is sometimes necessary to use the biological terms, “labels” & pronouns in order not to confuse people while trying to get your point across. If done right and with tasteful tact, it shouldn't offend the individual(s) that your referring to.

I am not a trans-man. I do not desire to be a man. I'm Gender Queer. I embrace both the female & male quality's that I posses. I think that makes it even tougher on the people in my life. They don't want to offend me and so they specifically ask me what pronouns to use. Speaking for myself, I personally don't care what pro-nouns are used when someone speaks of me or address's me. I tell people to use them according to how they view me as a individual. Therefore, I am aware that, that response from me can make it even more confusing for some people especially, when you have one group of people referring to me as “She” and another group referring to me as “He”. However, I can't control that. It just is as such. It's not up to everyone else to understand. It's up to ME to understand. As long as someones understands themselves and are comfortable and content with-in their selves and their own life, the other “odds & ends” are just that! A neither “here nor there”. The more one person can grow to love and respect themselves as individuals, the more respect they will get in return from other people as well. After all, that is what all Homo-Sapiens want out of this life to begin with. = ACCEPTANCE, RESPECT & LOVE.
N.

That is a very interesting question. And for much of the part I think it ultimately should fall upon what has stated as the wishes of the transperson that you are talking about.
I personally do not see anything grammatically incorrect about talking about traditional gendered roles with opposite gender pronouns. For example if you were to be introducing me with some historical background to some people by saying, “Jena is an activist,… she fathered two children, and she enjoys every interesting story that comes with raising them.” This would be correct. As I have publicly stated I knew I was a woman ever since I knew there was differences between boys and girls.
It does become more complex when there is the issue of fame involved, I know. For many people our age and older to say “Sonny and Cher's son” could cause confusion, should the reader not been following the news of Chaz's transition; after all some of us remember Chaz in his sundress being held by his dad at the end of each show.
However Chaz has made very clear in one of the most public ways possible, (on international TV shows) that he is transitioning and that he has always felt he was a boy. So for us to ignore that and continue to refer to him as the world formerly saw him is rude. Even if what we saw on those TV shows was not a little boy in a dress being held by his daddy. Chaz is saying that is who he was, and so it is on us to correct our perceptions and memories accordingly.

I agree with Norton here. Respect should beget respect. In the case of Chaz, and in my case, the two of us have made it very clear who we historically saw ourselves as, and who we currently are. It may seem different for one person to be as the world sees her as a “she” and also a “father,” but on the other hand since gender is between our ears and not our legs it is possible and we need to look at the way we have constructed the ideas of the terms we are using accordingly.
In a person that sees themselves as gender-queer and is more comfortable with fluid gender pronouns that too should be respected. But also on the same note we too need to respect the gender-queer persons that wish we use only the “Hir,” and “Ze” or other gender neutral speak. It is all about respect, we need to at the best of our ability try to respect what the person has verbalized.

Hey Jena!nnYou bring up a very good point, and I must apologize. I’m afraid the failure to proofread for the fine details falls on me. I was happy to edit the article to be more sensitive to your suggestions and perspective. In addition, I double-checked the source article and attempted to post your comment for their review (especially seeing as how they are an international news source and will undoubtedly give this article more traction than we will), however the Times UK site does not allow comments. nnOne thing I must say, is that although I deleted the last line regarding Chastity (now Chaz) Bono’s decision to come out as a lesbian at age 18, I think the original article was merely attempting to cite an action that occurred while Chaz was still Chastity. nnWouldn’t it be sort of grammatically incorrect, inaccurate, and confusing to refer to a male as “coming out” as a lesbian? nnFor example, if someone had known you before your transition and were referring to something you’d done in the past before your transition, they may (and not in an attempt to be rude) describe that action using your previous gender pronoun. Would that be entirely incorrect? Especially if the action was something you did that was an express result of your previous gender, such as marriage and/or a sport you played? nnComing from a personal perspective, if I were to change genders, I would not want people referring to certain past actions using my current gender pronouns (i.e. “Remember “dante’s” prom dress?” or “Remember “dante’s” first boyfriend?” or “Remember “dante’s” first trip to the Clinique booth for a make-up makeover?”) nnCurious, I am. nnB.

As always, Norton, you amaze me! I, too, refer to myself as gender queer and am never too tripped up on pronouns. I've got body hair like WHOA, and I may or may not shave it when I choose to dress more “effeminately” *lmao*

Sometimes, I think the business of pronouns is way over-emphasized. However, admittedly, before I allow myself to be too exasperated, I often remind myself that some folks are quite comfortable dropping the N-bomb, and just like I'd like my wishes to not be referred to in that manner to be respected (I don't care how many late night hours viewing BET and MTV have attempted to teach us otherwise) — I must respect a person's preferences and sensitivities as well

Just re-read that, and it sounded confusing … I'm sure you folks will “mean what I know” *lol*

Your question I think, comes down to personal preference and sensitivity. I refer to my past experiences congruently to my current. i.e. my gender presentation may have been different when I was 5,6,7, etc but my internal gender was not. Therefore in both cases, I refer to myself as Alex.

My family and those who knew me back then, tend to struggle a bit more with which name and pronoun to tie to childhood stories. Knowing it is a struggle with no definitive “right” answer, I accept either because I know neither is done disrespectfully. However, the majority of them use my current name and gender presentation.

“Chaz came out as a lesbian at 18″ may seem like an odd thing to say, but looses that oddity because we all know his history. We know he isn't a cis-male and therefore don't find it odd at all to refer to him as he while discussing his coming out as a lesbian in the same breathe.

I think it does depend on personal preferences and it could also depend on where you are at in transition. I am at the early stages of transition and am in that limbo stage where I don’t completely pass and have accepted that this is just where I am at right now. The further along I go, the more uncomfortable I feel having female pronouns used to identify me. For me, I would prefer being called male, even when referring to my past when I did not identify as male. If someone referred to me as female when talking about my past, I probably wouldn’t be offended unless it was intended to be offensive. This is just me, like I said, everyone is different.

I have also described myself as genderqueer, however, I don't see myself female. I have always believed that biological sex (male and female) and gender (masculine and feminine) are two completely different terms. However, in this socieity, it seems that these terms have become interchangeable. For me, I am male, however, I am comfortable having both femininie and masculine traits.

B, I do understand what your trying to imply here. I agree, when referring to a trans -individual(s) “past” life, it is sometimes necessary to use the biological terms, “labels” & pronouns in order not to confuse people while trying to get your point across. If done right and with tasteful tact, it shouldn’t offend the individual(s) that your referring to. nn I am not a trans-man. I do not desire to be a man. I’m Gender Queer. I embrace both the female & male quality’s that I posses. I think that makes it even tougher on the people in my life. They don’t want to offend me and so they specifically ask me what pronouns to use. Speaking for myself, I personally don’t care what pro-nouns are used when someone speaks of me or address’s me. I tell people to use them according to how they view me as a individual. Therefore, I am aware that, that response from me can make it even more confusing for some people especially, when you have one group of people referring to me as “She” and another group referring to me as “He”. However, I can’t control that. It just is as such. It’s not up to everyone else to understand. It’s up to ME to understand. As long as someones understands themselves and are comfortable and content with-in their selves and their own life, the other “odds & ends” are just that! A neither “here nor there”. The more one person can grow to love and respect themselves as individuals, the more respect they will get in return from other people as well. After all, that is what all Homo-Sapiens want out of this life to begin with. = ACCEPTANCE, RESPECT & LOVE.nN.

That is a very interesting question. And for much of the part I think it ultimately should fall upon what has stated as the wishes of the transperson that you are talking about. nI personally do not see anything grammatically incorrect about talking about traditional gendered roles with opposite gender pronouns. For example if you were to be introducing me with some historical background to some people by saying, “Jena is an activist,… she fathered two children, and she enjoys every interesting story that comes with raising them.” This would be correct. As I have publicly stated I knew I was a woman ever since I knew there was differences between boys and girls. nIt does become more complex when there is the issue of fame involved, I know. For many people our age and older to say “Sonny and Cher’s son” could cause confusion, should the reader not been following the news of Chaz’s transition; after all some of us remember Chaz in his sundress being held by his dad at the end of each show. nHowever Chaz has made very clear in one of the most public ways possible, (on international TV shows) that he is transitioning and that he has always felt he was a boy. So for us to ignore that and continue to refer to him as the world formerly saw him is rude. Even if what we saw on those TV shows was not a little boy in a dress being held by his daddy. Chaz is saying that is who he was, and so it is on us to correct our perceptions and memories accordingly.

I agree with Norton here. Respect should beget respect. In the case of Chaz, and in my case, the two of us have made it very clear who we historically saw ourselves as, and who we currently are. It may seem different for one person to be as the world sees her as a “she” and also a “father,” but on the other hand since gender is between our ears and not our legs it is possible and we need to look at the way we have constructed the ideas of the terms we are using accordingly. nIn a person that sees themselves as gender-queer and is more comfortable with fluid gender pronouns that too should be respected. But also on the same note we too need to respect the gender-queer persons that wish we use only the “Hir,” and “Ze” or other gender neutral speak. It is all about respect, we need to at the best of our ability try to respect what the person has verbalized.

As always, Norton, you amaze me! I, too, refer to myself as gender queer and am never too tripped up on pronouns. I’ve got body hair like WHOA, and I may or may not shave it when I choose to dress more “effeminately” *lmao*nnSometimes, I think the business of pronouns is way over-emphasized. However, admittedly, before I allow myself to be too exasperated, I often remind myself that some folks are quite comfortable dropping the N-bomb, and just like I’d like my wishes to not be referred to in that manner to be respected (I don’t care how many late night hours viewing BET and MTV have attempted to teach us otherwise) — I must respect a person’s preferences and sensitivities as well nnJust re-read that, and it sounded confusing … I’m sure you folks will “mean what I know” *lol*nn

Your question I think, comes down to personal preference and sensitivity. I refer to my past experiences congruently to my current. i.e. my gender presentation may have been different when I was 5,6,7, etc but my internal gender was not. Therefore in both cases, I refer to myself as Alex. rnrnMy family and those who knew me back then, tend to struggle a bit more with which name and pronoun to tie to childhood stories. Knowing it is a struggle with no definitive “right” answer, I accept either because I know neither is done disrespectfully. However, the majority of them use my current name and gender presentation. rnrn”Chaz came out as a lesbian at 18″ may seem like an odd thing to say, but looses that oddity because we all know his history. We know he isn’t a cis-male and therefore don’t find it odd at all to refer to him as he while discussing his coming out as a lesbian in the same breathe.

I think it does depend on personal preferences and it could also depend on where you are at in transition. I am at the early stages of transition and am in that limbo stage where I donu2019t completely pass and have accepted that this is just where I am at right now. The further along I go, the more uncomfortable I feel having female pronouns used to identify me. For me, I would prefer being called male, even when referring to my past when I did not identify as male. If someone referred to me as female when talking about my past, I probably wouldnu2019t be offended unless it was intended to be offensive. This is just me, like I said, everyone is different.

I have also described myself as genderqueer, however, I don’t see myself female. I have always believed that biological sex (male and female) and gender (masculine and feminine) are two completely different terms. However, in this socieity, it seems that these terms have become interchangeable. For me, I am male, however, I am comfortable having both femininie and masculine traits.

I think the tie-in between sex and gender is ultimately what makes the concept of transgender/gender queer, etc. so difficult for some. I still remember the looks on the faces of some of my fellow classmates this past Fall as I was attempting to explain my perspectives and outlooks to them — and we won’t go on trying to explain such things to my family. nnI suppose, in the way that Norton mentioned, I see pronouns as inhibiting and try to shy away from trapping an individual into using a particular set when describing me at all. Again, this is my personal preference, and can respect another’s may be different from my own. I am only offended when I can CLEARLY see the other person is intending to be offensive. nnI think there needs to be room for education. I mean, the idea of trans and gender-queer are so very new to soooooo many people. Before we fly off the handle and cry injustice, sometimes it pays to take the time to simply remind and explain. nnAlthough this level of patience is difficult, it is a valuable lesson I learned the hard way when I moved to West Michigan from racially-sensitive/divided Detroit and came to understand (in an all too embarrassing and absolutely horrifying fashion) that all white people are not out to get me — and there is a VAST and GAPING difference between plain old ignorance and someone who is steeped in one of those negative states of “-ism”nnIn short, I am rarely quick to fly off the handle unless I am pretty darned sure the person/people involved are dead set on offense and harm. In the case of Chaz, or anyone else going through transition, a public statement will help when describing preferences, but unfortunately, said statements and the people who make them are not omnipotent. I know this may be hard to believe, but possibly … just maybe … the reporter who wrote the article wasn’t trying to be an ass, and honestly just doesn’t/didn’t know … nnAlso, of all the headlines the Telegraph UK published in the last week, most certainly the one referring to Chaz as Cher and Sonny’s daughter was nowhere near the most troubling. nnDid anyone see the one entitled, “Have you turned your man into a hermaphrodite?” — http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/5978268/Have-you-turned-your-man-into-a-hermaphrodite.html

I think the tie-in between sex and gender is ultimately what makes the concept of transgender/gender queer, etc. so difficult for some. I still remember the looks on the faces of some of my fellow classmates as I was attempting to explain my perspectives and outlooks to them — and we won’t go on trying to explain such things to my family. nnI suppose, in the way that Norton mentioned, I see pronouns as inhibiting and try to shy away from trapping an individual into a particular set at all. I am only offended when I can CLEARLY see the other person is intending to be offensive. nnI think there needs to be room for education. I mean, the idea of trans and gender-